It breaks my heart to see otherwise kind and thoughtful people excusing torture on the basis that terrorists do things that are even worse. I have heard that mindless excuse for over 13 years now. I have seen folks actually repost the pictures and videos that terrorists have posted, specifically inciting more terror for the terrorists, as if we do not know that terrorists terrorize. Anyone who does that is doing exactly what the terrorists wish done. They are de facto terrorists themselves whether they realize it or not. In the face of terrorism, it is our job as Americans to carry on. Not ignorantly or blindly, but resolutely standing by the principles that make us exceptional. We should hunt down and capture or kill the beasts who terrorize, of course. But we should not forsake our founding tenets in the process.
Whatever others may do, Americans should not waterboard. Americans should not threaten rape. Americans should not "rectally hydrate". If we are going to proclaim American exceptionality, we must be exceptional. Americans should not torture.
Donald Murdock
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Voltaire
Sam Burnham
Exactly. The reason we are exceptional is because we are better. Tocqueville proclaimed that America was great because we were good. Once we stoop to the level of Hussein, Gaddafi, bin Laden, etc, we cease to be good. We cease to be exceptional. We just become another rogue nation.
We need to quip our forces with the tools and training to do their job and let them complete it, and come home.
But we also need to remember that in the long run all Americans are civilians. Wars end. People are discharged. They return home. We need to be concerned that we are damaging the humanity of these "enhanced interrogation" operators. They will walk our streets. They will hold jobs, buy groceries, attend our churches. We don't need to strip them of their humanity and conscience by training and teaching them these tactics and ordering them to be sub-human. That stuff doesn't turn off and on with a switch.
Jenny Sills
True enough but still burning people alive, smothering by smoke, crushing them with buildings could be considered torture too. These people were just going about their daily business.
Terrell Shaw
Yes, Jenny, terrorism is horrible. I have never heard anyone in my acquaintance argue with that. We can only be responsible for our own behavior.
Donald Murdock
True enough, Jenny, much the same as we've done to hundreds of thousands of civilians in our series of undeclared wars. When we allow ourselves, and our actions, to be lowered to the most base level of human behaviour, we have chosen to compromise our own integrity and the enemy has won.
Sam Burnham
Those people were going about their daily business and the terrorists were going about theirs. That's the problem. Inhumanity is the daily business of our enemies. The challenge is to neutralize the threat of terrorism while not allowing inhumanity to become our daily business.
We've had a warped notion of equality shoved down our throat too long. Equality means were all born human. It doesn't mean that circumstances and decisions don't make some folks better than others. We're better than the terrorists. We have to keep it that way.
David Marlin Rains
"The end justifies the means" - It's right there in the Bible.
Ruth Baird Shaw
My understanding is that no one is excusing "torture" because the terrorist do worse but , in the shock and horror of the 9/11 attack that cost us nearly 3000 lives and millions in damage... we did what out CIA felt at the tine needed to be done... to find out what the terrorist were planning next. With that inf . we were able to find and kill Osoma which was the subj of the Democratic convention, "We killed Bin Lauden and the terrorist are on the run" ...The Democrats and President Obama did not seem to be concerned about how they were able to find and kill Osoma during the election... God help us! It is crazy that the Democrats and Republicans are fighting one another and hanging our "dirty laundry" out to the world...
Raymond Atkins
We never really held the moral high ground to begin with (ask the Native Americans among others), and now we are denied our illusions.
Brenda Ron Carroll
When all of this came out, I thought..Hang on, wait a minute, weren't these the people who murdered without conscience alot of people? But then, what my parents taught me came to the fore. Two wrongs does not make a right. Period.
Howard Smith
Ms. Shaw, The CIA is not "licensed" to do what it feels needs to be done, nor do I want it to be. You said they can use torture if and when they feel it needs to be done and that is a dangerous proposition and position to hold. Where do you draw the line on what they can do....Can they cut off limbs if they feel it "needs to be done"? Or do you draw the line on their use of certain torture? I mean, is some torture OK but some is not? How about other organizations dealing with home land security? Do you also feel the same way about the FBI in dealing with hate groups right here at home? May we torture their members? What about local police using "all means necessary" to collect information from gang members to thwart possible crimes or murders? Or, Is it just the CIA that it is OK with you to use torture. Torture is wrong. I don't think its use can be "qualified" as "OK under certain circumstances". Either you oppose torture or you don't. And, while I am certain these incidences are not the first time we have been guilty of it, it is the first time we have been made aware of it as an accepted and organized practice within a governmental agency. That is why so many of us are reacting in such a negative way....because this time it was condoned. And, once we accept that torture may be used in "certain situations" we find ourselves on a slippery slope, one that is too easy from which to fall. We must not allow ourselves to rationalize its use ever as a means to an end. If we only oppose torture in good times or only oppose certain torture, or only permit selected individuals or groups to torture, then we are not really opposed at all...and, maybe we aren't. But, lets not pretend to be good guys. And, lastly, many very knowledgeable insiders dispute that any actionable intelligence was obtained from its use in this case. I know "Fox and friends", their "sources" and those who support and supported torture say information was obtained, but there are many who disagree and I place at least as much faith in them. In addition, expert interrogators dispute the fact that torture works.
Laurie Craw
If no Americans, Democrat or Republican, were appalled by the methods used and if no Americans called for limits on the methods used in the future, that would be most appalling of all. It would mean we have lost our moral compass completely and that we have lost all faith in our nation's government to act humanely and with respect for human rights.
George Barton
When I was stationed in Vietnam, the combat troups in my area, near Qui Nhon were South Korean, "ROK's". The Americans were all in support units, supplying everthing from ammunition to toilet paper. The Korean compound was right behind our mess hall. We could hear suspected rebels being "questioned" while we ate. The Koreans did not have to worry about any US Congressional committee looking over their shoulders at what they did. They kept the peace. On Sunday mornings, our chaplain, his assistant, and I would load up a jeep with Bibles, field organ, guns, and ammo, and conduct five church services in the Phu Tai valley, driving right by the Korean compound, and could see what was left of the suspects, usually in pieces, lying by the road, as a warning to others. Yes, I was appalled. I also slept better at night, knowing the Koreans were next door. War really is hell, making rules for the way you can kill or maim each other is naive and useless.
THOMASIN'S ROASTED BUTTERNUT SQUASH
FRANNI'S PAUL BUNYAN DOUBLE CRUST APPLE PIE
AL'S WILD RICE STUFFING
