I wrote this simple two sentence post on Facebook and sparked 56 replies. I enjoy these discussions.
Rid Congress of Ryan, Graves, and all Tea Partiers in 2018.
Make it simple: Medicare for all!
Tom Barclay
I'd go for ridding Congress of EVERYONE and starting over!
Sam Burnham Socialism: ideas so great they have to be mandatory.
Don Henderson
There's always that one person who doesn't understand how civilized society works. This isn't the 18th century, in case you didn't notice.
Sam Burnham
Our country is based on the idea of Liberty, which has no expiration date, in case you didn't notice.
Don Henderson
You have the liberty to not participate in society.
Sam Burnham Not if I'm being forced onto welfare at gun point
That's the essential difference in our stances. I want to leave you free to make choices. You wish to force me to make the same choices you do because your system can't work without violent force.
That's not society. That's tyranny.
Don Henderson
If you don't participate, no one is forcing you. Enjoy the 18th century on your own time. Don't force me to move backwards in time.
Sam Burnham
No, if I refuse to participate I am fined. If I don't pay, I'm arrested. If I resist, I'm beaten into submission or shot. That's force.
Don Henderson
You're free to move to Alaska and disappear. Cell phones and paved roads are too modern anyway.
Sam Burnham Your only argument is "it's 2017" and "modern". You do realize that paved roads and cell phones have nothing to do with socialized medicine or the present year, right?
Don Henderson
You do realize your only argument is you hate humanity?
Sam Burnham
Umm, no. And you reducing it to that highlights the lack of your own argument
Sam Burnham
I'm arguing for the liberty of all people, for the right of them to not be forced into anything by big government, and for not just accepting whatever some progressive politician proposes just because it's 2017.
Laurie Craw
Freedom is not just something only government gives or takes away and freedom is never absolute. If there was no government at all, we would not be free. We would be enslaved by a small group of private citizens who control all land, all natural resources, all the tools and means to grow food, build homes, travel,and get medical care,and they would obtain and maintain their power over us with violence. "Big Government" installed by the majority of citizens in free, fair elections is a necessary counterweight to "Big Capitalism" motivated by insatiable greed and unconstrained by morality and ethics in the interest of a common good. In America, we always seek a balance between these two powerful forces that impact our daily lives.
Sam Burnham
Big government and big capitalism are two heads of the same monster and if you think for a minute that either of these two heads doesn't benefit from the relationship with the other, you're lying to yourself.
Do you want Donald Trump, Paul Ryan, for that matter, would you want Ronald Reagan or Newt Gingrich in charge of your healthcare?
Laurie Craw
No, I don't want Aetna or UnitedHealth in charge either. The only way I can be in charge is if I choose to treat myself with home remedies or accept the consequences of no treatment at all. Otherwise, I have to pay for doctors, drugs and hospitals who set their own prices, take 'em or leave 'em. But if I could choose how I get and pay for modern medical care, I would choose government insurance and private medicine.
Sam Burnham But what if we shaped a system that allowed a more community approach with access to smaller providers rather than huge hospital companies running all the hospitals and all the offices that used to be operated by physicians with private practices?
What if we're in an overmedicated society because big businesses are putting us on whatever medications insurance companies and/or Medicare will pay for because that feeds their bottom line?
Don Henderson If civilized society isn't your thing, that's fine, but don't try to impose your antique philosophy on me.
Raymond Atkins
I always find it interesting that in the ongoing argument about healthcare, one of the first of the talking points is always that the government has no business in our personal choices, and I always want to reply, "You're kidding, right?"
Raymond Atkins The government makes us buy mortgage insurance, makes us buy car insurance, makes us pay taxes, makes us educate our children, makes us have our own personal identification number--assigned at birth--to make sure they can keep track of us and see that we are doing as we are supposed to.
Additionally, they make us buy licenses for everything we do, enforce sometimes foolish laws on us whether we agree with them or not, and have the power to enforce all of the above with penalties up to imprisonment.
Sam Burnham
And that's way too much for them to be holding over us
Raymond Atkins I think those are all good things, Sam. They are the fabric of our society.
Sam Burnham " our own personal identification number--assigned at birth--to make sure they can keep track of us and see that we are doing as we are supposed to." Is the fabric of our society?
Raymond Atkins
So given that we do not live in some sort of utopian fairyland where everyone does just as they wish, a single payer system--in at birth, out when you die--is not some huge leap over that mythological line between government and the people. The precedents have all been set. The ONLY way to rein in our broken medical system in this country is to put the big 3 (Insurance, Pharma, and Medicine) in the position where they no longer call the shots.
Raymond Atkins Incidentally, NO one walks away from a base of 350,000,000 insureds. All we need is some politicians with guts to say no to their corporate masters.
Sam Burnham
There is no such thing as a "single payer" system. Everyone will pay. A lot.
Nancy Parrish
We already pay a lot; it is just hidden. Nations that are less than we already offer single payer, and most of them receive some sort of help from the U.S. Our people deserve at least that much consideration from their government.
Sam Burnham
Then we can become less than we are and be more like them.
Howard Smith
Sam Burnham why don't you google the countries that are ranked higher than us in standard of living, healthcare, or ranked best nations to live in and why. You know what we rank first in when comparing nations...military spending, gun ownership and incarceration...
Sam Burnham
Gun ownership isn't a problem or negative. We lead in military spending because we're committed to defending all of Europe who spends their money on socialism rather than defense. And I'm not exactly sure how more government is going to lead to less incarceration but it seems to be the answer to everything these days so let's give it a shot.
Howard Smith
yeah right, it has has nothing to do with a massive military industrial complex that feeds off of our tax dollars requiring us to spend more on our military than Russia, China, Great Britain, France and a bunch of other countries combined. And, you're right, these social democracies that are ranked above have a higher standard of living, less poverty, less crime, better healthcare, better education, etc, precisely because they invest in their citizens, not in military bases all over the world. You know we have more bases outside our borders than all the rest of the nations of the world put together. And, yes gun ownership IS a problem as we have by far the highest rate of gun related deaths per 100,000 citizens of all the developed nations. And, since it is government that incarcerates either Americans are far worse people than are found in any other developed nation or our criminal justice system has issues. I've read enough on this issue to draw my own conclusions. And, one thing I know for certain, among other concerns, is for profit prisons and probation services aren't good ideas, nor are outrageous prison sentences for minor drug offenses...and, I won't even get into racial bias in sentencing.
Sam Burnham
Massive military industrial complex can't do anything that Washington doesn't pay them to do. Perfect example of Big Government & Big Business, the two headed monster. So let's go ahead and feed the monster our healthcare system. The same people buying $750 toilet seats can start buying $1000 Tylenol. And if you think they'll institute reasonable price controls you might want to look at that military industrial complex again.
Sam Burnham
$20 trillion in debt. $20 trillion.
Howard Smith Sam Burnham I realize, like Trump, you are never wrong, but the fact of the matter is government sponsoreed universal healthcare is working pretty well in every, that's every, other developed nation, far better for more for their citizens that our capitalistic private sector healthcare system does for us and less of their GNP goes for healthcare...image that. Medicare, for seniors works pretty goo here, too. Try doing away with it. And, since you mentioned Tylenol, surely you are aware they pay pennies to our dollars for medicine. As for the national debt, a lot of that is, in fact, due to military spending...more than 2 trillion on the Irag War alone, and a fair amount due to Republicans being unwilling to raise taxes in proportion to their spending habits, preferring to let the rich get richer.
Sam Burnham So turn our medical care over to people who can't deny their corporate masters?
Raymond Atkins
Nope. Get new people. This batch is ruined.
Raymond Atkins
But the problem is not Obamacare or Trumpcare.
Raymond Atkins
The problem is egregious corporate profits.
Sam Burnham
A new batch will be ruined in a week. They'll have too much power to not be hit by the corporate lobby.
Raymond Atkins The government tells everyone who does business just what they'll pay. The exception is medicine, drugs, and the insurance companies.
Raymond Atkins
I think eventually we'll get there, just as most of the First World already has, but it will be a struggle.
Raymond Atkins And, of course, many people will die who might have lived.
Sam Burnham
And then we'll all just be slaves of the tyrants
Raymond Atkins
Sam Burnham we're already that. The vast majority of the people in this country and in this world are subject to the whims and the agendas of the very few.
Howard Smith
Sam Burnham I don't think our neighbors to the North, that enjoy universal healthcare and pay far less for prescription drugs, consider themselves slaves of tyrants.
Sam Burnham
No, because they're conditioned to waiting years for non emergency surgeries and crossing their southern border if they need anything serious
Raymond Atkins Sam Burnham That's simply not true.
Howard Smith
Sam Burnham. Why don't you just google comparative ratings of how citizens of various countries, including Canadians, view their heath care systems....(hint...America...not near the top).
Sam Burnham Then I guess the lady from Alberta who told me she had to wait two years for her surgery was a liar. I guess that's possible.
Howard Smith
No, she was probably not a liar. Do some folks come here...and, lots of Americans go to other countries, too, sure. I have even known folks who have MOVED to Europe because of the cost of health care....met some Americans over there, too, who said they moved there for healthcare. Even had a friend that went to Mexico for a particular procedure because it was so much cheaper and another to Romania for dental care...saved enough to pay for the whole trip. But, I'm not basing my opinion on one or two examples and neither should you. However, if your entire frame of reference is some lady from Alberta, well...enough said. However, again, I would suggest you do a little more homework on the subject. It is a fact that nations with universal health care spend less of their GNP on it, it is a fact that medical care costs less for their citizens and so do prescription medicines, and it is a fact that their citizens have a higher level of satisfaction with their health care systems. When you add all these facts with the one about their citizens living longer...well, you draw your own conclusions. Of course, you can always argue alternative facts. You got me there.
Deanne E Daniell Voters must be reminded many times between now and then what these Republican monsters tried to do!!!!!
Jane Jameson If everyone is willing to pay their share!
